Trading & The Rules

Hey guys, I have a question about the trading rules and what's been done in the past and what's being done now.

The background is that I made a trade which was confirmed on Thursday of this week. The trade lowered my cap # and I was able to afford 2m FA players so I sent a list in. Dave informed me that the trade would not be processed this week b/c of the rules stating that trades must be completed before Tuesday EoD. I'm absolutely fine with that but I have two questions:

1) Has this always been the case? I understand that DURING the season this rule is in place so simming and the making of MPs can go smoothly. Hence the reason the rule is in the "Weekly" section of the trading rules. But in the offseason I was under the impression the trades took place immediately, since season disks and MPs were not being released consistently and no MPs were needed. This could obviously be me not remembering how things were done, but when I was commish for a year I believe I processed the offseason trades as they happened.

2) Anyway, the biggest point is consistency. During the rookie draft we allow trades to be processed immediately with no review process. Some of these trades don't involve draft picks so it's just a product of two guys being in the same room and talking and getting a deal done. So if we're going to enforce the offseason trades due by Tuesday rule, wouldn't that void all of our draft day trades? There's no rule in place that says, "There's a Tuesday trading rule EXCEPT for the rookie draft".

While I am annoyed that I wasn't able to participate in the 2m FA round, and part of the reason I jumped on a trade opportunity before Friday and feeling like I shuold've been involved, this really isn't about that. It's about hammering down an offseason trading rule into stone and making sure we're on the same page or at least making that rule more prominent on the rules page by taking it out of the in-season weekly dates section. If everyone else was fully aware of the procedure in the offseason and it's just stupid me who didn't get it, that's good. But if not I wanted to bring it up so everyone understood 100%.

Dave
GM Bombers

Dave
GM Baldwin Bombers
bombersfpbl@gmail.com

I'm almost positive that Furstein sent out an e-mail notifying people after the auction was over that trades would no longer be processed immediately.

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Jason Witt
Owner - Starved Rock Magi
E-Mail : magi@fp-baseball.com
Google Talk - jasonawitt@gmail.com
YIM - witts11

Oh ok, I must've missed that.

Dave
GM Baldwin Bombers
bombersfpbl@gmail.com

Starved Rock Magi Wrote:
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> I'm almost positive that Furstein sent out an
> e-mail notifying people after the auction was over
> that trades would no longer be processed
> immediately.

Can you see if you can find that email Jason (I called you Chris)? I don't see one like that.

Think I found it, this? "Starting next week, we will resume our normal schedule of trade processing."

Dave
GM Baldwin Bombers
bombersfpbl@gmail.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2012 09:26AM by Baldwin Bombers.

Feb 10, 2012 - 8:09 AM

Tonight is the last night of the auction. Due to the time conflict with the 4M round, I am going to push back the deadline to submit the 4M list to 11:59p, Monday, February 13th.

Starting next week, we will resume our normal schedule of trade processing.

--
David Furstein - FPBL Commissioner

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Jason Witt
Owner - Starved Rock Magi
E-Mail : magi@fp-baseball.com
Google Talk - jasonawitt@gmail.com
YIM - witts11

And I'm Jason, by the way.

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Jason Witt
Owner - Starved Rock Magi
E-Mail : magi@fp-baseball.com
Google Talk - jasonawitt@gmail.com
YIM - witts11

Yep, you found it.

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Jason Witt
Owner - Starved Rock Magi
E-Mail : magi@fp-baseball.com
Google Talk - jasonawitt@gmail.com
YIM - witts11

Thanks, must've missed that. I don't see why that time is any more important than others for trade review timing. It needs to go into the rules page.

Dave
GM Baldwin Bombers
bombersfpbl@gmail.com

Starved Rock Magi Wrote:
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> And I'm Jason, by the way.

In the heat of passion our true desires come out.

Dave
GM Baldwin Bombers
bombersfpbl@gmail.com

We probably just want to change the language of the rule then. Because it's in place due to the MP release schedule.

From the rules page:

"A trade is official as soon as both teams involved have submitted the trade to the league email."

As far as I'm concerned that states a trade is done with at that point unless its vetoed later. But the Tuesday trade deadline date refers to the in season MP schedule, IMO. The reason it exists is that trades are supposed to be announced on Wednesdays, giving time to veto before the weekend MP is created and released. IMO that's the intent of the rule and shouldn't be held up in these circumstances. Prove me wrong...

Dave
GM Baldwin Bombers
bombersfpbl@gmail.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2012 09:32AM by Baldwin Bombers.

Or you're just turning into our Mom. Next time you'll need to call me Shawn, or our Dad's name, or the cat's name, etc...

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Jason Witt
Owner - Starved Rock Magi
E-Mail : magi@fp-baseball.com
Google Talk - jasonawitt@gmail.com
YIM - witts11

Well my trade for Jered Weaver on Wednesday isn't getting processed until next week either, which is fine with me, but then again I read the above e-mail. Seriously though, I don't remember when the transition from instant trades to Tue night trade processing took place in the past, but the rules could simply state something about a switch once the auction is over.

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Jason Witt
Owner - Starved Rock Magi
E-Mail : magi@fp-baseball.com
Google Talk - jasonawitt@gmail.com
YIM - witts11

Starved Rock Magi Wrote:
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> Well my trade for Jered Weaver on Wednesday isn't
> getting processed until next week either, which is
> fine with me, but then again I read the above
> e-mail. Seriously though, I don't remember
> when the transition from instant trades to Tue
> night trade processing took place in the past, but
> the rules could simply state something about a
> switch once the auction is over.

I don't think that's the issue at all. I think that strictly refers to which MP release the player will be traded during. The trade itself is still final when both teams agree and therefore Jered Weaver is on your team right now.

Dave
GM Baldwin Bombers
bombersfpbl@gmail.com

You can trade a guy on Wednesday or Saturday. The trade should process immediately. Then on Tuesday the trades that were collected get released to the league on Wednesday for review. Doesn't change the fact that they were already done with.

Dave
GM Baldwin Bombers
bombersfpbl@gmail.com

I would suggest this issue get a poll for the league to weigh in.

I will start by saying the rules were clear, that, post-auction, we were on normal schedule per the rules page. However, I don't think there should be one set of rules for the auction and one set of rules for the draft segment. Free Agency should have ONE set of rules, no matter what they are. Just my two cents.

It's not about putting it to a poll. As Dave said himself, it's about context. The weekly event dates, in context, are in season dates based upon the weekly MP release and transactions. Outside of that the more general non contextual rule is clear.

"A trade is official as soon as both teams involved have submitted the trade to the league email."

Done. No discussions. No polls.

Dave
GM Baldwin Bombers
bombersfpbl@gmail.com

"Official" doesn't mean "processed".

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Jason Witt
Owner - Starved Rock Magi
E-Mail : magi@fp-baseball.com
Google Talk - jasonawitt@gmail.com
YIM - witts11

Starved Rock Magi Wrote:
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> "Official" doesn't mean "processed".

Processing is a formality and based upon the free time the commissioner has to process them. But they have always been final immediately. Hence our quick turnaround times for 3 team deals. The weekly event dates also speak nothing of "processed". Those dates have always been in season dates. If they're not being interpreted that way anymore well then that's a change/problem I was unaware of.

If you guys want to ignore it and let it go so be it. But that's not the way the rule has been in the offseason.

Dave
GM Baldwin Bombers
bombersfpbl@gmail.com

I was under the impression that they did go into effect immediately much like Bozz. I'm confirmed the deal Thursday night to give Dave the chance to get involved in the $2 million round because I figured that would be a factor in the trade plus I needed a day to re-do my own list based on how I perceived my lineup and needs after the trade. However I can see I'm wrong about this, my own fault for misinterpreting, but I'm clear now.

It's just illogical. This round is over and Paul and I will have to deal with that. But unless we have a vote at some point I'm under the impression the rule is as it always was. Trades happen immediately. Even during the season. I can trade a player one day and go to trade him again next day and have both of those trades accounted for as long in the current MP as long as both those trades are due before Tuesday I don't have to wait for one to process and then one the next week. trades happen immediately as it's always been as the site says. And if not I don't really want to be in a league that has rules change on the fly without discussion

Dave
GM Baldwin Bombers
bombersfpbl@gmail.com

If trades happen immediately why wasnt the owner allowed to participate in the 2 million round when he had the cap space because of a trade?

Los Angeles Isotopes Wrote:
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> If trades happen immediately why wasnt the owner
> allowed to participate in the 2 million round when
> he had the cap space because of a trade?

That's the whole point. All trades that take place after midnight EST Tuesday night (Wed morning) don't get processed until the following Tuesday night. Furstein reminded everyone via e-mail that we were going back to that schedule after the draft. I agree that the rules should be clearer about the process, but he did let everyone know in the e-mail quoted above. You admitted that you overlooked his statement. He's not changing rules on the fly, this is the way trades have always been processed during free agency and the season. The rookie draft is done differently, and we've only had an auction for two years, so really there just needs to be a clarification that once both teams confirm the trade it becomes official but won't be processed until Tuesday at midnight. So if you both confirmed at 11:59 pm Tuesday night it would have been processed one minute later. This is the way I have always remembered trades being handled, including under Chris. And again, not to beat a dead horse, Furstein did tell everyone that the normal trading schedule was going back into effect. That really should be the end of the argument regarding this particular trade. I made a trade on Wed that Furstein told me wouldn't be processed until after this weekend's draft, but I already knew that in advance and my deal only shifted cap space by $100k anyway. But I will say again... I do think the rules page could use better language.

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Jason Witt
Owner - Starved Rock Magi
E-Mail : magi@fp-baseball.com
Google Talk - jasonawitt@gmail.com
YIM - witts11



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2012 04:37PM by Starved Rock Magi.

Sorry Jason, but you're mistaken. The reminder about a rule that doesn't exist is proof of nothing. The reason I didn't understand the note in Dave's email is b/c it mentions something that hasn't existed before. It's as if the email said, "Don't forget that the 3rd period signing period is tomorrow." you are "misremembering". We've had trades in this league where picks and players are turned around and traded same day or next day without your "Tuesday review". The fact is that it's in your heads.

Sorry. I'll live with it. But with rules being made up, trades being announced to specific teams and not released to the league, it's a big mess. This is a league that we all need to take ownership of and it seems most are resolved to let these things go by without question. It's pretty ridiculous.

Dave
GM Baldwin Bombers
bombersfpbl@gmail.com

This one is on me.

Looking back to last season, I processed trades in February on what appears to be a Friday schedule. However, considering we have already had multiple trades during Free Agency up until this point, that they have been processed on a Wednesday schedule, and that the league was given a heads up on how I was going to process trades at this point, I will be consistent going forward, keeping to the Wednesday schedule.

I will be looking to re-clarify the rules page in the coming weeks... probably with the approval of a lawyer , so that things are clearer in the future.

David Furstein
GM New York Jaywalkers
david.furstein@gmail.com

Baldwin Bombers Wrote:
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> Sorry. I'll live with it. But with rules being
> made up, trades being announced to specific teams
> and not released to the league, it's a big mess.
> This is a league that we all need to take
> ownership of and it seems most are resolved to let
> these things go by without question. It's pretty
> ridiculous.

I don't think it's a matter rules being made up. The auction wasn't a part of the original rules page, and there was no differentiation anywhere between trading on pre vs post auction environment. Dave did say in his email that the normal processing of trades would return post rookie draft. I don't think this is any different than how it has been handled since Dave took over the league, or at least in the last few years. While it's not explicitely called out in the rules page, it doesn't mean it's not the way the league runs trades.

I think the moral of all of this is that we should update the rule pages for the post auction environment that FPBL is in. Times have changed, and we can prevent disagreements like this in the future if things are explicitely called out. This is not a knock against anyone, Dave did state what was happening in his email, and Bozzz does have a point with the rules page.

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Brooklyn Brawlers
Adam Napack
brawlers@fp-baseball.com

Also, please note that any time I send out an email regarding procedure, it takes precedent over the rules page. An example of this is changing the deadlines for releases to accommodate the auction.

David Furstein
GM New York Jaywalkers
david.furstein@gmail.com

Like I said I'll deal with not being included in the round.

But we should not be using that weekly schedule in the offseason regardless of what day it is. The processing of the trades has nothing to do with offseason trading. Trades are and have always been immediate. The schedule exists to determine which weekly league database the player is traded in, mid season, because of the way we simulate games on a weekly basis.

The offseason is wide open and that includes BOTH the auction and the FA periods, keeping in mind the new trade moratorium rules.

Dave
GM Baldwin Bombers
bombersfpbl@gmail.com

New York Jaywalkers Wrote:
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> Also, please note that any time I send out an
> email regarding procedure, it takes precedent over
> the rules page. An example of this is changing the
> deadlines for releases to accommodate the auction.

Unfortunately I didn't realize the email was talking about days to confirm trades by due to the fact I thought we'd never done that before.

Dave
GM Baldwin Bombers
bombersfpbl@gmail.com

New York Jaywalkers Wrote:
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> Also, please note that any time I send out an
> email regarding procedure, it takes precedent over
> the rules page. An example of this is changing the
> deadlines for releases to accommodate the auction.

And I guess one last final thing is that the email doesn't take into account the issue that trades have also been immediate. Regardless of processing time. Otherwise as soon as anyone makes a trade which is official, they don't not have access the the items in te trade or any gain or loss in cap room. You're actually at a disadvantage when you trade.

Dave
GM Baldwin Bombers
bombersfpbl@gmail.com

Baldwin Bombers Wrote:
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You're actually at a disadvantage when you trade.

I guess you shouldn't make any more trades then.

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Jason Witt
Owner - Starved Rock Magi
E-Mail : magi@fp-baseball.com
Google Talk - jasonawitt@gmail.com
YIM - witts11